It could well be that photos by Harry Jeidels were kept in the estate of one or other Dunera Boy or Queen Mary internee. In any case, the estate of Heinz and Ida Dehn contained a surprising number of photos bearing the stamp of the photographer with Berlin roots. After fleeing and being deported, he was only able to resume his profession in Australia in 1942. In the 1950s, he became a well-known theater photographer in Melbourne. In retirement, he devoted himself to a rare hobby. Was Harry the inventor of the podcast? We are publishing this biography on the occasion of his 120th birthday on February 22, 2025.
Peter Dehn Febuary 2025.
From Schöneberg to Queensland

Harry’s birth certificate from the Schöneberg registry office.
The bank clerk Hugo Jeidels, who lived at Barbarossastrasse 66, appeared at the Berlin Schöneberg registry office to record the birth of his son Harry on February 22, 1905. Entry no. 469 stated that “Frieda Jeidels née Jacobsohn, his wife, of the Mosaic religion” had given birth to the boy in the apartment they shared. Hugo and Frieda had married in Berlin on February 4, 1904[1] Registry office of Charlottenburg, entry No. 71 from Feb 4, 1904 via ancestry.de, retrieved on Oct. 18, 2024..
Hugo was born on June 29, 1852 in Charlottenburg. His parents, the lawyer Paul Jeidels and his wife Amalia, née Herz, came from Würzburg. They were deceased at the time of Hugo’s marriage. Hugo had been in the Jewish Hospital in Berlin Wedding since May 17, 1939. He died there on January 23, 1940[2] Cf. Mapping the Lives. (wrong birth date 1862). retrieved on Nov. 20, 2024..
Frieda Jacobsohn was born on April 24, 1875 in Carthaus (East Prussia) as the daughter of the merchant Jakob and his wife Amalie Laserstein (ca. 1848 – 30.12.1910). Frieda was deported to the Lodz ghetto on October 18, 1941. The last news about her was her deportation to the Kulmhof (Chelmo) extermination camp on May 8, 1942. She was declared dead on May 8, 1945. In the Jewish address book for Berlin, parents and son are last listed under the address Martin-Luther-Straße 56 in Berlin Schöneberg. Until the 1939 edition, Harry is listed there with his “Werkst. f. Pressephot[3] White Pages Berlin 1939, via ancestry.de, retrieved on July 20, 2024.” (Workshop for press photography).
It also works without flashlights
After leaving school, Harry Jeidels studied chemistry and physics in Berlin. At the same time, he went into professional photography. From around 1927, he worked for Ullstein Verlag[4] Wikipedia about Ullstein Verlag (German), retrieved on Oct. 20 2024., the largest publishing house in Germany at the time. Several daily newspapers and a number of specialist and consumer magazines as well as books – some with large print runs – were published there. Harry’s photos may also have been purchased and marketed by the company’s own agency, Ullstein Bilderdienst. The Fox film production company was also mentioned as an employer. Even then, he was already active as a theater photographer and with advertising photos for celebrities, in addition to current photo reports. Richard Tauber, Peter Lorre, Paul Henreid, Gitta Alpar and other well-known artists[5] Newspaper reproduction and unsigned article from Dunera News Nr. 2, pages 18/19, published November 1984, retrieved on Oct. 10, 2023. had their portraits taken by Harry.
The quality of his photos was achieved by not using flash powder[6] Wikipedia about the History of flashlight photoghraphy (German) retrieved on Juky 20, 2024., which was common at the time. His knowledge of chemistry and physics helped him achieve this. He had developed chemical mixtures to achieve good results even in poor lighting conditions and with rapid development. Flash units are still a taboo in photo rehearsals for stage plays and stills from film shoots for good reason. Star portraits of Harry Jeidels were also distributed as photo cards in cigarette packets, which were popular collector’s items[7] Cassia Jay „Harry Jay“, in Dunera News No. 35, page 14, retrieved on Oct. 10, 2023. at the time.

The Austrian magazine for photo amateurs “Photo und Kinosport” published this report by Harry Jeidels on his portrait session with the tenor Richard Tauber in October 1932. Source: Publication archive Anno of the Austrian National Library. The Contax I was the first camera for 35mm film (type 135, negative format of 24 x 36 mm) by Carl Zeiss, Dresden, from around 1932. Most cameras developed by August Nagel for the Nettel company under the Contessa brand were bellows-type cameras intended for rollfilm (Typ 127) and produced negatives in the format 4 x 6.5 cm.
The Austrian magazine for photo amateurs “Photo und Kinosport” published this report by Harry Jeidels on his portrait session with the tenor Richard Tauber in October 1932. Source: Publication archive Anno of the Austrian National Library (automatic image change or use arrows).
Escape to Vienna
The transfer of power to the Nazis on January 30, 1933 brought the first turning point in his life. Harry left Berlin and Germany and went to Vienna[8] The information about Harry Jeidels' time in Vienna was mainly taken from Walter Mentzel's article „1938 – Aus Wien vertriebene/ermordete jüdische Fotografen und Fotografinnen“ (1938 - Jewish photographers expelled from Vienna/murdered). Retrieved on Nov 20, 2024.. There he registered a “photography business[9] Entries in the acquisition tax register, Amtsblatt der Stadt Wien (Official Gazette) on October 25, 1933, page 752, retrieved on Feb 10, 2025. limited for newspaper purposes” on October 18, 1933 and soon ran a photo studio at Wiesingerstraße 6. In January 1934, he became a partner in the “Residenz-Atelier für moderne Photographie”, which the Viennese photographer Berthold Friedmann (1868 – 1937) had founded in 1910 in the so-called “Residenzpalast” at Fleischmarkt 1. After Friedmann’s death, the company operated for a short time under the management of his widow Regina Friedmann as “Residenz-Atelier-Jeidels” until March 1938.
In addition to his partnership in the “Residenz-Atelier”, Harry Jeidels also supplied newspapers in Vienna with photos of theater and dance productions. He lived at Taborstraße 1 until March 1938, when he probably embarked on the next stage of his escape immediately after the Reichswehr invaded Austria on March 12 and 13, 1938.
Karl Rössler, an NSDAP member who had been employed there since 1920, and Hanns Hieber had bought the Residenz studio in November 1938. Hieber left at the beginning of 1939, so the business was considered “aryanized”. Regina Friedmann was deported to Theresienstadt on June 20, 1942 and transferred from there to the Treblinka extermination camp on September 23, 1942. Her daughter, who lived in the USA, later tried in vain to obtain restitution.
Deportation instead of asylum
Harry came to England[10] Dunera News No. 2 aao. via Italy. He settled in the London borough of Holborn. He and Johanna Jeidels were registered at 8 Old Gloucester St. in the British census of September 29, 1939. She was born Johanna Augustin[11] Cf. Civil Marriage Index England and Wales, 3rd quarter 1939, via ancestry.de. on March 24, 1910 in Vienna. It can probably be assumed that Harry and Johanna met there. According to British documents[12] File cards of the Office about Johanna Jeidels, via ancestry.de., they were initially recognized as refugees. Harry named Johanna as his contact person when he joined the Australian army in 1942, but later had this changed. Nothing is known about their lives after the forced separation.

Since his refugee status was revoked on October 12, 1939, he became an “enemy alien”. The Home Office noted his job as a photographer with a London company. But because nothing prevented the British from blindly labelling friends as enemies, the London police arrested Harry on June 28, 1940, marking the beginning of his time as an internee. Two weeks later he had to embark on the journey through hell to Australia on the Dunera.
Internment
Harry Jeidels was one of the almost 2,000 Dunera deportees who, after arriving in Sydney, were taken directly from the wharf by train to Hay in the Australian state of New South Wales. He was housed in Camp 8, one of the two internment camps. These were located near the train station and were separated from each other by a road. Behind triple barbed wire, the internees set up a self-administration. In addition to sport, the “camp university” was an important aspect. There, internees held lectures for their comrades on a variety of scientific and technical subjects and gave language lessons.
The Dunera internees were housed in Camp No. 4 near Tatura from July 1941 until their release to England or the Australian army. Harry Jeidels gave lectures there. Harry Jeidels gave lectures on topics such as rail, ship and air traffic safety, the history of the postal system, “sound film and records” and, of course, photography. He was also responsible as heqadmaster. The camp commander therefore made it easier for him to move between the camp’s separate compounds.
As a “labor soldier” in the Australian army
After his release from internment, Harry Jeidels followed the call to join a work unit of the Australian Army. He began his service on April 8, 1942[13] Australian Government, Department of Veteran’s Affairs, Service Record Harry Jeidels, retrieved on Oct. 25, 2024.. In the 8th Employment Company, made up almost exclusively of German and Austrian former civilian internees, he – like Franz Lebrecht and several other comrades – was appointed Lance Corporal[14] Lowest enlisted rank in the Australian Army. after a short time. He was mostly deployed in Tocumwal and Albury[15] Harry Jeidels/Jay military file, National Archives of Australia, NAA_ItemNumber6255117.. At the railroad stations in these towns on the border between the Australian states of Victoria and New South Wales, the soldiers transferred military and other goods between trains of different gauges.
At the end of 1943, his file recorded several stays in hospital, including for chronic depression (dysthymia). Why he was demoted to private in 1945 is not clear from the “Service and Casualty Form”. It is also unclear why the discharge certificate that had already been issued was withdrawn on January 15, 1943. The note “ongoing research” in the military file says nothing specific about this. He was only discharged from the Australian Army on February 27, 1946.

Lectures at the camp university were advertised with hand-painted posters. Here for lectures in 1941 by Harry Jeidels on “Security management for railway, shipping and air traffic” and “Sound film and record”. Thanks to Harry for his work as a lecturer and principal in the Tatura camp. Source: Jewish Museum of Australia, nos. 3242, 3399,3450; donated by Cassia Jay.

Harry in the uniform of the Australian labor unit. Source: Jeidels family archive.

Heinz with army comrades. The photo of his later wife Ida is dated 1944 – before Harry Jeidel changed his name. Source: Dehn family archive.


Heinz Dehn as a soldier in Albury and here typically with a cigarette. All photos are by Harry Jay and were taken during Heinz’ service in the 8th Employment Company from late November 1942 to March 1946.
While serving in the army, Harry was able to take up photography again. Photos of Heinz Dehn in Albury are not the only evidence of this. Among other things, he purposefully took portraits of his comrades. For the popular commander of the 8th Employment Company, Captain Edward “Tip” Broughton, Harry copied large numbers of a portrait, which he mounted on cardboard. Broughton inscribed them with dedications and gave them to his subordinates as mementos after his retirement.
Harry was probably something like the “house photographer” for his unit. When the satirical anti-fascist musical “Sgt. Snow White” was developed by the troupe, he documented the 1943 performance at Melbourne’s Union Theater in photographs.

On leaving the service, the commander of the 8th Employment Company presented many of his soldiers with his portrait of Harry Jay. Among them were William Henry Herr and the soldier Tichauer “The Tanner”. Source: Jewish Museum of Australia, No. 3262 (donated by W.D. Herr), and No. 3477.

The magazine “Pix” illustrated its article on June 26, 1943 about “Sgt. Snow White” with photos of Harry Hay. Source: Trove Newspaper Archive, National Library of Australia NLA.
Back behind the camera as a professional

Confirmation of army service by the Veterans Department of the Australian Government.
In November 1944, the name change[16] Ibid. from Jeidels to Jay is entered in his service file. On November 22, 1945, Harry Jay beecame a citizen of Australia[17] Certificate of Naturalization from Nov 22, 945, NAA_ItemNumber31756064.. After being discharged from military service in February 1946, he was soon able to establish himself as a professional photographer in Melbourne.
Among his early clients were Heinz Dehn’s future wife Ida and both their good friend Franz Lebrecht and other ex-internees. Even though the Dunera Boys were often only interested in smaller jobs such as passport photos, Harry made a visible effort to stage his “models”. The “Dunera connection” may have helped to establish the photo studio in Melbourne’s business district. In April 1946, he found premises at 117 Collins St.[18] Advertisment in „Australian Jewish Herald“ from April 18, 1946. Trove, retrieved on Oct. 20, 2023., diagonally opposite the city hall of the metropolis.
“When I first opened my rat-infested studio (Melbourne was tehn full of rats) in Collins Street, I worked in a ham factory at 5 a.m. before starting work at 11 a.m. as Harry Jay, photographer,” he recalled in a 1984 intverview[19] Newspaper article, reproduced in Dunera News No. 2 loc.cit.. “We specialize in studio Portraits & also call at Weddings, paries or at your home,” he advertised when he opened in May 1946.
It was certainly the photographer’s “eye” that prompted Melbourne theater manager David N. Martin to hire Harry Jay on the spot as house photographer for the Tivoli Vaudeville Theater. Later, Wirth’s Circus[20] Wikipedia about Wirth’s Circus, the biggest Circus of Australia, headquartered in Melbourne from 1907 to 1957, retrieved on Nov. 20, 2024. also hired him.

“Coming to your house …” Harry’s advertisement on page 11 of the “Australian Jewish News” of May 3, 1946. source: NLA/Trove.
Harry Jay again worked according to his principle of using only available light. He also used this for difficult lighting situations, e.g. with artists on the Tivoli stage. He was the first person in Australia to photograph a stage show with short performances by comedians, artists, singers and dancers exclusively with “available light[21] Dunera News Nr. 2, loc.cit.” . He did this occasionally during a running show, from a hidden position in the middle of the audience. He also operated the shutter behind the scenes and created PR photos for many Australian stage stars and international guests. His own chemicals, which he had worked out in Berlin, were difficult to handle; for years his house, studio, clothes and hands were stained yellow[22] Ibid., according to reports about his work in Melbourne.
Love at first sight
Ellen Cassia Grayeff (Grajew) was born on May 6, 1909[23] Cf. Billion Graves, retrieved on Nov. 20, 2024. in Königsberg (East Prussia) and lived for some time in Joachim-Friedrich-Straße[24] Eva C. Schweitzer, „Who has information about Ellen&/Ella-Ida Tucholsky?“ in aktuell, No. 105 7/2020, page 63 (German), retrieved on Oct. 18, 2024. in Berlin-Halensee. She was active in the theater scene. After the death of her mother in 1936, the Jewish woman had nowhere to go in Germany and tried to enter Australia, where the family had relatives. The papers came in 1937 and she arrived there in the middle of the year, according to her brother Felix[25] „Felix Grayeff – Migrant Scholar. An autobiography“. 1986/2003, digital: Verlag der Universitätsbibliothek Freiburg i.B., retrieved on Nov. 20, 2024. (1906 – 1981). Thanks to her efforts, Felix was able to join her. When he arrived in Australia in March 1938, she was working as a sales clerk in Sydney.
Cassia Grayeff became an Australian citizen in 1945[26] Certificate of Naturalization from March 12, 1945, NAA_ItemNumber31528650. In Sydney, she was able to establish herself as an actress and organizer of theatre-related events. This work brought her into contact with other refugees, including Dunera Boy Hans Margis. She organized an event for the 75th birthday of the Jewish former actor at the Vienna Burgtheater, Prof. Fritz Blum[27] The Sydney Jewish News from Dec. 9, 1949, page 11, Trove, retrieved on Oct. 20, 2023. (1875 – 1951). Her name received special attention in Sydney’s Jewish media.
Cassia and Harry met at the launch of the SS Himalya[28] Wikipedia about SS Himalaya (German), retrieved on Nov. 20, 2024. on October 6, 1949. It must have been love at first sight:Three days later, he proposed to her.“Our courtship was a whirlwind of roses and letters,” Cassia recalled in an interview.“Harry had used the oldest pley in the world when he saw me in a Kings Cross restaurant. ‚Haven’t we meet in Berlin?‘ But it worked because I had come from Berlin, though he didn’t know it at the time. A few weeks later I came to Melbourne coinciding with a show by Arthur Askey.” In April 1950, Harry and Cassia got engaged, according to an advertisement[29] The Australian Jewish News from April 6, 1950, page 10, Trove, retrieved on Oct. 20, 2023.. They married on June 3, 1950[30] Advertisment in The Australian Jewish News from June 3, 1950, page 16, Trove, retrieved on Oct. 20, 2023. in Melbourne.

Cassia Jay. Source: Jeidels family archive.

Engagement announcement in the Australian Jewish Herald, April 6, 1940, source: Trove.
Not just celebrities …
Many stars became friends who were occasionally generously entertained by the Jays. One newspaper[31] The Argus, from, Aug. 10, 1955, page 11, Trove, retrieved on Oct. 20, 2023. reported: at one of these parties, the famous pianist Winifred Atwell[32] Wikipedia about Winifred Atwell. She had her roots in Trinidad and was successful with ragtimes, boogie-woogies etc. in the 1950s and 1960s. “Let's Have Another Party” made her the first dark-skinned female musician and the first female instrumentalist to reach number 1 in the British charts. She used her position to criticize the treatment of Australia's First Nations and racism, retrieved on Nov 25, 2024. (1914 – 1983) mixed and served a “Rum Boogie” cocktail that she had created herself.Each woman was given a handkerchief with the recipe and the musician’s autograph as a parting gift, the reporter noted.
The earlier Berlin photo acquaintance, perhaps also both their childhood and youth in Berlin-Schöneberg, may have prompted Marlene Dietrich to have Harry document her Australian tour in 1965. In Australia, portraits were also taken of Dunera’s companion and composer Felix Werder. Liz Taylor, Luciano Pavarotti, the Beatles and the Rolling Stones, among others, stood in front of his camera.



Among the artists Harry Jay portrayed were the composer and Dunera Boy Felix Werder and the Rolling Stones. Source: Australian Performing Arts Collection, Arts Centre Melbourne, Gifts from Harry and Cassia (1983).
Outside of the theater scene, he took aerial photographs of Melbourne.The archives of the Australian Sports Museum contain photographs of the opening of the 1956 Olympic Games[33] Australian Sports Museum, via search function. with his stamp on the back. They show the Australian team marching in and an aerial view of the stadium among others.
Harry was a respected colleague in the Australian photography scene. The honorary job as treasurer of the Institute of Victorian Photographers[34] Cassia Jay in Dunera News no. 35, loc.cit. was entrusted to him for 15 years, his widow reported.
From image to sound – inventor of the podcast?
Perhaps to gain some distance from photography, Harry Jay took up the recording hobby and the exchange of recordings – also with international hobby friends. After retiring, he founded the Recording Society of Australia in 1965 and became its president. A friend from Israel later wrote to Cassia, among others, that Harry was known worldwide for his nature-life recodings and with the community through the newsletter “Tapespondences”. “His name has become a household word[35] Cf. Mike Sondheim „Harry Jay – Founder of Recording Society“. In Dunera News no. 26, page 9, published February 1993, retrieved on Oct. 10, 2023. in international tape exchange,” the friend had written, Cassia reported on the recognition from this community.

New media à la 1971: The trade journal “Electronics Today” about the “Tape News Talking Magazine”.
In 1971, an Australian audio trade magazine[36] Electronics Today, September 1971, page 96, retrieved on July 20,2024. wrote under the headline “New Media” that the association was producing a “Tape News Talking Magazine”. “It is believed to be the first of ist kind in the world”. This talking magazine reported “balanced content of technical and general news items, reviews, club news, record reviews, a sprinkling of advertisments and advice to the tape recorder owner to assist him in obtaining optimum performance from his machine.” Harry Jay served as editor.
A magazine to listen to? That was really new back then.Today, the concept of a more or less regular publication of thematically oriented audio content is known as a podcast.Of course, the Internet makes the distribution of audio content much easier today than the mailing of analog cassettes, which was indispensable back then.
Harry Jay was “well known in Australia and overseas for his animal recordings”, the magazine also reported. Another source specified his interest in recording natural sounds from the Australian bush and added: “He also recorded the sound of shows at Tivoli for the Melbourne theater’s archive.
In retirement
In retirement, Harry and Cassia settled on the Gold Coast in the Australian state of Queensland. He left his archive of theater photos and actor portraits to the Australia Performing Arts Collection.
Harry Jay died on April 22, 1987, Cassia on September 18, 1999, and both were buried in Melbourne.
Please note: We would like to thank Irene Jeidels and Annelies Linssen in Delft (Netherlands) for their support. They are the daughter and granddaughter of Harry’s cousin Kurt Jeidels. Valuable information about Harry’s stay in Vienna came from Dr. Walter Mentzel. Further thanks go to the Jewish Museum of Australia in Melbourne and the Arts Centre Melbourne with the Australian Music Vault & Australian Performing Arts Collection.

Harry in his audio studio. Source: Jeidels family archive.
Footnotes
show
- [1]↑Registry office of Charlottenburg, entry No. 71 from Feb 4, 1904 via ancestry.de, retrieved on Oct. 18, 2024.
- [2]↑Cf. Mapping the Lives. (wrong birth date 1862). retrieved on Nov. 20, 2024.
- [3]↑White Pages Berlin 1939, via ancestry.de, retrieved on July 20, 2024.
- [4]↑Wikipedia about Ullstein Verlag (German), retrieved on Oct. 20 2024.
- [5]↑Newspaper reproduction and unsigned article from Dunera News Nr. 2, pages 18/19, published November 1984, retrieved on Oct. 10, 2023.
- [6]↑Wikipedia about the History of flashlight photoghraphy (German) retrieved on Juky 20, 2024.
- [7]↑Cassia Jay „Harry Jay“, in Dunera News No. 35, page 14, retrieved on Oct. 10, 2023.
- [8]↑The information about Harry Jeidels' time in Vienna was mainly taken from Walter Mentzel's article „1938 – Aus Wien vertriebene/ermordete jüdische Fotografen und Fotografinnen“ (1938 - Jewish photographers expelled from Vienna/murdered). Retrieved on Nov 20, 2024.
- [9]↑Entries in the acquisition tax register, Amtsblatt der Stadt Wien (Official Gazette) on October 25, 1933, page 752, retrieved on Feb 10, 2025.
- [10]↑Dunera News No. 2 aao.
- [11]↑Cf. Civil Marriage Index England and Wales, 3rd quarter 1939, via ancestry.de.
- [12]↑File cards of the Office about Johanna Jeidels, via ancestry.de.
- [13]↑Australian Government, Department of Veteran’s Affairs, Service Record Harry Jeidels, retrieved on Oct. 25, 2024.
- [14]↑Lowest enlisted rank in the Australian Army.
- [15]↑Harry Jeidels/Jay military file, National Archives of Australia, NAA_ItemNumber6255117.
- [16]↑Ibid.
- [17]↑Certificate of Naturalization from Nov 22, 945, NAA_ItemNumber31756064.
- [18]↑Advertisment in „Australian Jewish Herald“ from April 18, 1946. Trove, retrieved on Oct. 20, 2023.
- [19]↑Newspaper article, reproduced in Dunera News No. 2 loc.cit.
- [20]↑Wikipedia about Wirth’s Circus, the biggest Circus of Australia, headquartered in Melbourne from 1907 to 1957, retrieved on Nov. 20, 2024.
- [21]↑Dunera News Nr. 2, loc.cit.
- [22]↑Ibid.
- [23]↑Cf. Billion Graves, retrieved on Nov. 20, 2024.
- [24]↑Eva C. Schweitzer, „Who has information about Ellen&/Ella-Ida Tucholsky?“ in aktuell, No. 105 7/2020, page 63 (German), retrieved on Oct. 18, 2024.
- [25]↑„Felix Grayeff – Migrant Scholar. An autobiography“. 1986/2003, digital: Verlag der Universitätsbibliothek Freiburg i.B., retrieved on Nov. 20, 2024.
- [26]↑Certificate of Naturalization from March 12, 1945, NAA_ItemNumber31528650
- [27]↑The Sydney Jewish News from Dec. 9, 1949, page 11, Trove, retrieved on Oct. 20, 2023.
- [28]↑Wikipedia about SS Himalaya (German), retrieved on Nov. 20, 2024.
- [29]↑The Australian Jewish News from April 6, 1950, page 10, Trove, retrieved on Oct. 20, 2023.
- [30]↑Advertisment in The Australian Jewish News from June 3, 1950, page 16, Trove, retrieved on Oct. 20, 2023.
- [31]↑The Argus, from, Aug. 10, 1955, page 11, Trove, retrieved on Oct. 20, 2023.
- [32]↑Wikipedia about Winifred Atwell. She had her roots in Trinidad and was successful with ragtimes, boogie-woogies etc. in the 1950s and 1960s. “Let's Have Another Party” made her the first dark-skinned female musician and the first female instrumentalist to reach number 1 in the British charts. She used her position to criticize the treatment of Australia's First Nations and racism, retrieved on Nov 25, 2024.
- [33]↑Australian Sports Museum, via search function.
- [34]↑Cassia Jay in Dunera News no. 35, loc.cit.
- [35]↑Cf. Mike Sondheim „Harry Jay – Founder of Recording Society“. In Dunera News no. 26, page 9, published February 1993, retrieved on Oct. 10, 2023.
- [36]↑Electronics Today, September 1971, page 96, retrieved on July 20,2024.